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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:01 am 
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Location: Michigan USA
Is there a distinction at all? I imagine there are many Masters throughout the world, every club has one and every show has demos from masters as well. Yet, I imagine World-Class bonsai to be above the master-class, these are the bonsai that, as you said, can "compare favorably" with those at world-level shows.

Will


Attachments:
File comment: From Cheng Cheng-Kung's gallery http://artofbonsai.org/galleries/cheng.php
6.jpg
6.jpg [ 35.5 KiB | Viewed 5638 times ]
File comment: From Min Hsuan Lo's gallery http://artofbonsai.org/galleries/hsuanlo.php
Ficus__78cm.jpg
Ficus__78cm.jpg [ 39.82 KiB | Viewed 5638 times ]
File comment: From Walter Pall's gallery http://artofbonsai.org/galleries/pall.php
dscn02851g.jpg
dscn02851g.jpg [ 136.06 KiB | Viewed 5636 times ]
File comment: From Qingquan Zhao's gallery http://artofbonsai.org/galleries/zhao.php
chinese_elm2.jpg
chinese_elm2.jpg [ 93.1 KiB | Viewed 5636 times ]


Last edited by Will Heath on Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:07 am 
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Come on Rob and Will, let this not become a p..ing contest.
The main theme of this thread should not be how many if any master pieces, world class trees etc are in America. The main theme should be what can be done to make all the trees and talents that are already there more visible and to create more quality trees and talents.
Whoever wanted to understand the more or less subtle messages so far understood them already. And whoever just does not want to understand and rather shoots the messangers will not be convinced anyway.
Walter


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:35 am 
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Walter Pall wrote:
The main theme of this thread should not be how many if any master pieces, world class trees etc are in America. The main theme should be what can be done to make all the trees and talents that are already there more visible and to create more quality trees and talents.

Very well said.

Will


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:21 pm 
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Will,
I hope that you didn't mean to show Cheng Cheng Kung's juniper as the absolute minimum standard for world class. His carving is so good that nobody can come even close to what he does. If that's the standard we have to beat, then I'm afraid we all are going to fail.
Don't make this more depressing than it is. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:22 pm 
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Attila,
There is nothing about Cheng Cheng Kung's Bonsai that should depress you. They are exquiste and inspiring. You are so right about his Jins and Sharis.
Too often they are created quickly and used as props. His are painstakingly slow to create and much thought is given to the entire Bonsai. It is a great lesson and should inspire us with his excellence.
Mark


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:15 pm 
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Just a side note. This thread has gone on over eight pages. It has been filled with ideas, agreements, disagreements and points of view from all over the world. It amazes me that no one has gotten mad. There has been no blood letting, no throwing of bricks, name calling, or questioning of one's parentage or accusations of an oedipal relationship.
It makes me proud to be involved in bonsai once more, and renewed my faith in the people that do bonsai both professionally and as amateurs.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:54 pm 
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Vance,
There is no reason to be amazed, this is AoB. ;)

Will


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:35 pm 
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Attila Soos wrote:
Will,
I hope that you didn't mean to show Cheng Cheng Kung's juniper as the absolute minimum standard for world class. His carving is so good that nobody can come even close to what he does. If that's the standard we have to beat, then I'm afraid we all are going to fail.
Don't make this more depressing than it is. :)

Yes Attila, you are right on the mark. I remember that we had front row seats to watch Cheng work at GSBF 2005.
Little hope for us ordinary mortals.
Sigh.
Mike


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:13 pm 
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Mike,
Rob and I were sitting deadly in front of Cheng.Here some pics.
-dorothy


Attachments:
PB041420cheng.jpg
PB041420cheng.jpg [ 23.85 KiB | Viewed 5530 times ]
PB041450cheng.jpg
PB041450cheng.jpg [ 27.65 KiB | Viewed 5529 times ]
PB051492cheng.jpg
PB051492cheng.jpg [ 28.76 KiB | Viewed 5529 times ]
IMG_0024cheng.jpg
IMG_0024cheng.jpg [ 27.55 KiB | Viewed 4007 times ]
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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:19 pm 
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Dorothy Schmitz wrote:
Mike,
Rob and I were sitting deadly in front of Cheng.Here some pics.
-dorothy

We were sitting a couple of people away on your right side.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:36 pm 
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Yep that was my head in the hat next to Dorothy's beautiful red hair.
I also had the priviledge of seeing Cheng's work in Taiwan. Very impressive.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:45 pm 
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Small world.
American bonsai, according to some, has a long ways to go in order to be placed side by side with with European bonsai. This, even though American Bonsai is ten years older than European Bonsai.
The Europeans were enjoying fine art long before America was discovered (discovered being relative, my own ancestors would argue the point) and while it is true that America was settled by Europeans sharing this artistic heritage, it would be many years before they could turn again to such leisurely pleasures. For all intents and purposes, the European settlers here left their artistic heritage at home.
Since then many American Artists have sprung up, landscapes painted by these masters are truly works of American art. Bonsai has not traveled the same path here, to this day people are imitating the Japanese, quoting Japanese rules, and using Japanese terminology.
Have the Europeans left this behind?

Will


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:59 pm 
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Will, as you know I have another article that addresses this issue in a small way. Personally I have become bored with much of the Japanese Model though I am having a problem separating myself from it. It is the work of Cheng Cheng Kung and Walter Pall that have opened my eyes to the possibilities of going beyond those patterns, but that of course is not to say the Japanese model is wrong, it is just one way and perhaps not the only way.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:29 pm 
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Vance,
just an additional thought:
You are probably familiar with Cheng's publications. The one book mainly deals with his sidiao technique. Cheng mentioned that he published the book to also show what you can do with material of secondary quality!
Think about it, 'secondary quality'!
This clearly shows to me how far Taiwan actually has advanced in the art of bonsai, not to mention their fabulous tropicals. (Knowing the Taiwanese juniper is one of the best material there is..)
So, it is not only Europe who is galopping away, for me it is Taiwan which is beaming away even more.
Regards,
dorothy


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:52 pm 
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I wish I could honestly tell you that I was familiar with Cheng's book, or an abundance of his works. All I know is what I have recently read. I was blown away by the pictures posted on IBC and here, I had not seen his work previously. I know that sounds unbelievable, but it is none the less true. I agree with you about his skill and artistry.


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