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Contest Discussion
http://www.artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=2220
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Author:  Budi Sulistyo [ Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:24 pm ]
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Hi Will,

What about Casuarina. Will it be catagorized as conifer or broad leaf?

Budi

Author:  Walter Pall [ Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:46 pm ]
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Budi,
this is not our decision. This is decided by botanists. I am personally not quite sure whether it is an agiospermum or gymnopsermum. But a botanist would know and then it is clear. This was the basic idea, to have a scientifical classification which ends all this bonsai confusion. I think it is a conifer.
Walter

Author:  Walter Pall [ Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:40 pm ]
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My research has shown that the casuarina is in the beech section of the angiopserms. Thus it is NOT a conifer (gymnoperm) it is a broadleave tree (angiosperm)

To avoid the terms angiopsperms and gymnoperms which would be too much for non-botanists we have called angiospers broadleave trees and gymnopsperms conifers. There are no exact English terms unfortunately. The common distinction between conifers and deciduous is botanically nonsense and causes all sorts of confusion.Outside the English speaking world this distinction DOES NOT EXIST. This again causes endless misunderstandings on an international forum and in an international contest.

Casuarina is a broadleve tree (angiosperm). Regardless of whether it certainly does not have broad leaves!

Some will question why we bothered to use this nomenclature and not the common one that it used in bonsai. Truth is that there is not a common one if you look at the whole world and not just the English speaking one. The only common one is offered by science: angioperms and gymnopserms. Since this is an international forum and an international contest this had to be done to avoid total confusion.

Author:  Hans Vleugels [ Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:49 pm ]
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Maybe it would be a good idea to add a "Suiseki" category to this contest. I think this could be very interesting for all the people who like suiseki. I am sure there will come great looking entries from all over the world, and that it would be an valuable addition to this contest...

Kind regards,
Hans

Author:  Mike Page [ Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:59 pm ]
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If it is decided to have a stone category, may I suggest that it be called "viewing stone", as this covers the field. "Suiseki" is too specific.

Mike

Author:  Will Heath [ Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:34 pm ]
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How do the other members feel about this?

Author:  Robert Steven [ Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:33 pm ]
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I am not totally agree. Even include the companion plant is already bit out from bonsai.

Author:  Robert Steven [ Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:38 pm ]
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From the plant physiology, at least Casuarina is not conifer. As Walter said, broad leaf tree not neccessary always have broad leaf, as deciduous not always drop the leaves...

Author:  Will Heath [ Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:52 pm ]
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My thoughts are that Suiseki is quite different from bonsai and as such, would require judges that have specialized knowledge in this area. Although the judges for this contest are highly skilled in the art of bonsai and display and have experience judging bonsai and display, we would need a different criteria for choosing judges for viewing stones.

It would be unwise to lump this wonderful art into this contest to be judged by people who may not be prepared to do so, this idea deserves better.

We would however like to invite Suiseki collectors to send in photographs of, as well as information on, the viewing stones in their collections for consideration as featured galleries here at AoB. If we create enough interest, the next contest might include such a gallery and select judges with this in mind.


Thanks for the thoughts!

Author:  Walter Pall [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:26 am ]
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I am not so fond of the suiseki idea. It is a field entirely by itself. It has nothing to do with bonsai other than a smal minority of bosaiists are also practicing this. Next thing is ikebana. And then we might as well include all dos.
To be not so fond is an understatement. I am radically agains this dilusion.

Walter

Author:  Budi Sulistyo [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:47 am ]
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Thanks Walter for your research on Casuarina.

We need some clarification as well on Podocarpus and Taxus. Can somebody help?

I think it is not a bad idea to have suiseki in a feature galery of the AoB.

Budi

Author:  Will Heath [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:11 am ]
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Budi Sulistyo wrote:
Thanks Walter for your research on Casuarina.

We need some clarification as well on Podocarpus and Taxus. Can somebody help?

I think it is not a bad idea to have suiseki in a feature galery of the AoB.

Budi



Podocarpus is listed as a gymnoperm so it is a conifer ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podocarpus ) ( http://www.conifers.org/po/po/index.htm )


As to Taxus:

"The Taxaceae is now generally included with all other conifers in the order Pinales, as DNA analysis has shown that the yews are monophyletic with the other families in the Pinales" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxaceae


So these examples would be conifers.



Will

Author:  Shaukat Islam [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:07 pm ]
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Interesting clarification on 'Conifer' by Walter and Will, thanks.

However, on visual considerations I am quite pleasantly surprised to note that Podocarpus is a gymnosperm and hence a conifer (although the leaves look broad-leaved) and not Casuarina which resembles so much with the conifers!

Regarding Suiseki, it is a category altogether different and will not fit here.

Shaukat

Author:  Budi Sulistyo [ Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:15 pm ]
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Thanks for the clarifications.
I raised all of the questions just to make everybody aware of the criteria, so that there will be no misunderstanding in the contest.
Budi

Author:  Will Heath [ Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:06 am ]
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We certainly do appreciate your input Budi, thank you.


Will

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